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What Are The Flying Saucers With Major Donald Keyhoe Johnathan Lenord Of Time Magazine Captian William Nash Willy Lay Chek Swarthz Talks About White Sands In 1948 Frank Edwards Talks

Understanding Audio Transcript

Recording structure

• [00:00] Opening remarks and introduction
• [22:03] Main address
• [01:07:25] Development of the main themes
• [01:40:31] Questions and closing discussion

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[00:00] Opening remarks and introduction

I want to say more weak voices than strong voices have been heard in the matter of what are the flying saucers. Many individual beliefs. Some people prefer to believe that actually saucers have landed and little men have gotten out and run. Some people prefer to believe that they have taken right and everybody else has completely missed this great story.

They would like to have you believe all of this. I personally classify these people as very weak voices and people who actually hinder the movement of this phenomenon.

The Air Force, I am very sorry, is a very weak voice. I have experience with Air Force people involved in UFOs that they have withheld the proper information from the general public.

We are all fortunate here tonight. Strong voice in the matter of flying saucers. Why can't we get more information? I elect to do that for him. He is the director of the organization in Washington. He has been on the Washington scene as a radio broadcaster for many years. He is now a news director for a TV station in Indianapolis. I know that you've all heard of the guest of honor this evening. And when I mention his name, give him a little hand clap.

Mr. Miller, before we begin, I should like to thank you for your interest in this particular field, fascinating and baffling as it is.

And as a matter of fact, the more I keep in sincere interest in this matter,

I've had a good many years to make some sense of things where I was told there was no sense. Some definitive conclusions. Mr. Towers told you, a member of the known as NICAP.

I'm very proud to be on that board.

He certainly knows what the government knows.

And I think the man who coined the term guided missile. Charles Maney.

Lee Keehill. The organization NICAP. Definitive conclusions which will enable us to put out a statement over the signatures of these men whom I have just mentioned.

And when that statement is put out, I don't have... But when it is put out, we'll find it a bit difficult. A bit difficult, not to say embarrassing, by saying that they're having...

...have been key men in our government. And they know just about as much about this particular subject, I'm sure, as anyone. It's plain that I agree with the Air Force on one very important... I agree with them that there are no such things as... I think it is much more fun to ridicule these objects under their slang name of flying...

...and then to go out and chase them as the Air Force does every night under their official title of unidentified... ...with me tonight.

...a film you'll enjoy. This first film that you're going to see was made in the studios at American University in Washington about a year and a half ago.

...of the narrator. The gentlemen on the panel are quite capable of taking care of themselves and of the opposition. The film goes along, they do just that. The subject of this film is what... I mean, rather, the title is What Are the Flying Saucers? ...in just a moment. Before I tell you that we went into this business well for this particular subject.

What are the... We made this pilot film. It was... It was taken up to New York and NBC.

NBC was very much interested. They wanted to run the series on Sunday afternoon. Could we produce the other film? And they assured them they were quite capable of producing the other films in the series. So NBC was real hot about this thing. Oh, they were going to do business with it. Five days later, they notified us they couldn't find the time available. Which didn't surprise me, and I'm sure it wouldn't surprise any of you folks that you've been in my position. Then Columbia got into the act. They were real interested. They wanted to run the series. Keep the film about two weeks, and we finally got it back by parcel post one day, and they didn't even bother to send us a little message of explanation. They just returned the film. When we went to see them, we never could find the guy who turned it down. And said that they wanted to use it, and he asked us to send it to him. Folks who have been particularly close to this subject,

because somebody always jerks the rug out from under you. ...effective medium of communication to enlighten them,

or at least... ...keep the information flowing to the problem of you may remember.

Candid with you about that. I was not fired from my job with the 10 million sponsors because of any flying saucers. George Meany, whom I didn't get along so much, it was their program, what they wanted.

And if they didn't want any audience, that too was their business. I sent in my resignation, and he says I resigned, but I can show you the footprints to prove that I didn't.

I'm just kidding about all this. Because... I've been fired many times in my career, and probably will be fired many more. ...being put upon by management. But those things are part of life, and I've always managed to... ...fired and moved from one job to another. And as you can see, I haven't missed a great many meals. Without any more things like that, I'd like to ask the gentleman to darken the house,

and I'd like for you to see our movie... ...specific subjects.

And known to millions of Americans, and the nature of the gentleman on my extreme right here,

Major Donald Kehoe. Your opinion of the nature of the flying saucer.

A two-year study. Much, Major Kehoe.

And now I should like to put the same question to... ...Mr. Jonathan Leonard, of... ...the nature of the... Captain Nash, and we'd like to hear from you, sir.

...experience on that particular occasion. So I had to make it... ...in 1952...

...in the cities of Newport... ...before they might be hired.

In about once...

...I've never seen any similar objects since that time...

...not having become public knowledge.

The city of Newport...

...quite a city.

You knew where you were. We knew exactly where we were. Yes, but how would you know how big it is?

You cannot tell, but in our... ...locations, over there, speed... ...back to the city.

...be very near...

...feet in diameter...

[22:03] Main address

...five to thirty miles away. This was in 1952. 1952, yes. Why have the Air Force since then denied it frequently, and over and over again? I beg your pardon, sir, they have not denied it, because... ...in 1952, I received... ...some forty reports from Air Force Intelligence, which were secret and confidential up till that time. They were specifically declassified for me. Then why have they, uh... And that is one of them that was included in the report, and it is one of those, and I would like to point out, this was released... ...exactly as I said in the book. So the Air Force had absolutely no explanation for it. The Air Force has since stated, frequently, and from the very, the very highest level, that there is no reason to believe that anything...

...that they have seen or heard about... ...indicates that these objects come from a flying saucer problem.

Now, since then, I have been in contact with the Air Force constantly on the investigation. ...money, they have... ...about two thousand reports... ...Major Kehoe...

...say that he believes... ...at the same time, you're giving the impression that the Air Force has never considered the possibility.

The official stand was going to be on this panel. The Air Force says... No. ...it has no conclusive... Oh, yes, I beg your pardon, sir. You will find that is the stand. They may be in planetary, but we can't prove it. The Air Force stand is that the Air Force's duty is to investigate everything unexplained that they find in the sky. That's its duty. They cannot say... ...a secret, sub-planetary object.

It was made to the Director of Intelligence with a recommendation that it be made public. It was made to the Director of Intelligence with a recommendation that it be made public. It was made to the Director of Intelligence with a recommendation that it be made public. The existence of this report was admitted to me. He said that it had not been released.

Hundreds and hundreds of pilots... ...security.

He did.

I've been in contact with the Air Force. The Air Force... ...was declassified for me. In spite of the fact, they told you last... ...in December of 30... ...it was not secret... ...Edward J. Ruppel, who was the intelligence officer in charge of clearance at Project Blue Book. Ruppel is the one that wrote the story in True Magazine, didn't he? Just a moment, please. I was in charge of the Air Force investigation. During this time, certain reports were declassified... ...and sent to you at the request of the Office of Public Information. The procedure in sending you this information was that I would receive a request... ...either direct from OPI, Office of Public Information... ...or the Director of Intelligence by... ...cleared by my superiors. In many instances, I was informed the data were for you... ...just from outer space, which you, I think, read. Yes. And you remember the cases in there listed? The sightings, you cut it to the Air Force.

And the Air Force conclusions on each are those I sent to you through the OPIDD. And I won't go into all this because we haven't the time. He also sent your inversion... ...which I believe you care for. Did Ruppel in any time say that he believed these things came from outer space? Ruppel told me personally and said in True Magazine... ...if the flying saucers exist at all, they are interplanetary. There is no other acceptable conclusion. That's his last paragraph in True Magazine. The rest of it was devoted to a denunciation... ...of a small group of literary acts and propagandists... ...who are making a great deal of money... Everything in his book, we haven't time for it here. He says, he starts out with a long setting... August 12, 1953. The object was seen on radar while the plane was seen. They got a simultaneous fix. The object chased the plane. The plane came back. The object came back over. History had never been explained.

If they exist, unless you disregard all the content and evidence... ...he says they're interplanetary. Mr. Lay is a very competent observer on these things. What is your opinion of this? Well, I feel that this conclusion of Major Ruppel... ...that there is no other explanation. Objects of one kind or another, we don't know yet what they are.

He is extremely competent.

I believe he is...

Well, there's a case for interplanetary sources.

They spent two years on it. It was a serious report. And he has had a long time to... You stated that people who published all this stuff about flying saucers should confine...

They were mixing science fiction with fact. Now, your boss, Mr. Henry Luce, publishes Life magazine as well as Time. He approved the article in Life magazine. Do you mean that Mr. Luce, your boss, was mixing science fiction with fact... ...when he approved that article? Well, that puts me in a dreadful position. No, I don't know. No? I really want to know. You know, I don't know. Listen, not everything in life is checked by Luce in the first place. And in the second place, we do various things. Now, I know all about the origin of that article. And I disagree thoroughly. I disagree with some of the things that have been in time also.

That's my opinion. I'll take that attitude.

Perhaps a different viewpoint in the light of this. Maybe they are. Possibilities yourself.

Yes, I do. Ah. Possibility that the Flying Sausage Man who has beaten us... It would interest me no end. But when I hear the evidence, such evidence which doesn't immediately fall down... Well, your experience.

I'm interested in that. And I'm only a little bit firmer. Because nothing would interest me more. It might be a rather frightening possibility of these people coming and taking over our planet... ...and treating us like pot and cats. But still, it's nice. It's a nice thought. It would be an interesting context. Certainly. Of course it would be. We just want that evidence. We haven't been given it yet. Of course. We didn't catch them. We didn't catch the things. But the Wright brothers could fly the first airplane until they did. But when they did, there was no doubt that they had. Yes. Only a very... A great number of people would not believe it. Gentlemen, I regret very much that I must interrupt here at this moment. Being earthly creatures, we must conform to the natural laws of time and space. And perhaps, I should say, gravity. and come back to earth again interesting discussions that each of you has expressed

in your capacities on this program the gentleman on my extreme right here major donald kehoe and next to me captain william nash and mr jonathan leonard of time magazine we wish to thank you very much for being on this program what do you think and for giving your opinions on black in just one moment which is we have above timber on the surface of mars are quite rugged

uh during the spring and summer mars has seasons just like the earth the polar cap that you see is the southern one and it as the as the summer comes on it will melt and disappear it has seasons day and night just like ours the day is about 37 minutes longer and it has seasons spring summer winter and fall of course the whole temperature level is some oh 80 degrees lower than it is here on the earth we have no proof of the existence of life on mars anything such as probably of the same as they would be 11 miles above the surface of the earth

very low temperature very mr schwartz back in 1948 uh of the mexico is that correct sir that

is correct remember the while you were there at white sands did you have any unusual experiences

in the firing of tracing of these rockets in particular i can recall when we were firing a

v2 rocket one morning faster than the rockets what happened to the objects eventually where

did they go the objects uh needed upwards were there any other sightings of this uh type or

similar types of white sands while you were there yes there were there were quite a number report

sightings on in were there any opinion expressed nature of these objects uh yes there was without

a doubt all of these people in connection with that movie which you saw there while ago in which

mr willy lay was one of the panel members i'd like to tell you a little story about mr lay i was on a

with him on the dumont tv network was entitled uh the author meets the critics before the evening

seen the thing as mr kehoe did or major kehoe rather

and willie was giving us a pretty hard way to go for about 15 minutes because we didn't have any samples to show him and he wasn't going to believe anything we saw a sample see a sample

maybe i should show him one which had been sent to me voluntarily by a group of our top in it these

were both departmental flight officers who had been flyers for all of their self-deployed

units uh and i answered at a pretty long break in colorado him he started making a comment uh all the talks that he made about the evidence of flying objects he stated that they thought they were gonna send me a copy of the piece there's no way to know who sent me the și flying objects so he wouldn't really have to send customers any information that he had available he said that I gave him a letter that I had available and then sent it to the dan seemed to her to transport it over the gendes i who have information about Punkte to do the e-mail what i had came from, I'd like to show you the signatures at the bottom of the letter, and then I would like to read to the television audience tonight one sentence from that letter, which is the only sentence I'm permitted to make public. I said, would you accede to that? I'll let you see the letterhead first. So I showed him the letterhead, his eyes popped open,

the signatures, and I showed him the signatures, his jaw dropped, because these were men whose

words Mr. Lay was in no position to challenge. And I said, now having seen the letterhead and the signatures, you know where the letter came from and who sent it, now do I have your permission to read one sentence to our listeners? He said, yes, oh yes, oh yes. I read the one sentence, and it said, after six years of evaluating the material and information furnished to us by the United States government and other governments, we, the undersigned, are of the unanimous opinion. That these objects, known as flying saucers, of a very high order. Well, that took all

the wind out of Mr. Lay's sails that night. The moderator on the program kept trying to prod him along so he'd get a little critical again, stir up a little fire, but Willie didn't have any fight left in him. And after we left the studio that night, I had to go back out to the LaGuardia Field there in New York. Willie rode all the way out with me in the taxi, questioning me about these things and trying to get as much information as possible out of me as he could, which I thought was a rather dramatic and remarkable conversion for a man who knew all about them on the other side only an hour before. The night before

last, over the city of Washington, seven of these unidentified objects appeared in a V-shaped formation. They were first seen at Silver Springs, MD, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. They were at very high altitude. They were circular, yellowish-orange in a V formation. They were, as I said before, now living in a big house. In fact, they had to be removed. The next day they were in a very small shelter, and I was one after the other. They put a personal opinion. There was no evidence of something. The director, who was there who said no, I don't know what happened. The director told me that they had to go with the as I said, at extremely high altitude. Nobody knows how high. No one has made any official statement to that effect. And they were tracked by the Baltimore Filter Center, which refuses to make any statement on the subject, and they were last seen proceeding northward and still at high altitude over Pennsylvania.

I'm sure that Mr. Jonathan Leonard, whom you saw on the film here a moment ago, wouldn't agree that this was anything but probably some milkweed pods or something. Because, as he says, how do you know they're at high altitude? You don't know how big they are. But there are a lot of things that set without getting down and measuring them with a yardstick. And I'm willing to accept the words of the statements of the observers, including a couple of CAA men who saw these same things night before last, whatever they were. The first thing I experienced in this field when I was on mutual was the fact that I was on a plane. I was on a ship with the Airline Pilots Association. And I did not agree with the official statements that people who saw these things were having hallucinations. I became extremely skeptical of that official brush-off for the things when, in July of 1952, they came over Washington. As you will undoubtedly remember, I was there at the time.

I know how much excitement there was. And the Air Force said the next morning that these were hallucinations. And that was their explanation. They were stuck with it. Yes, these were hallucinations. Then a couple of days later, when the things came back, they shoot down these hallucinations. And I'm sorry that they didn't do it, because I think that would have been even more remarkable than shooting down an unidentified flying object. I'd love to see a badly riddled hallucination. At that same time, to shoot these things down beyond the air at noon, that gave me a chance to pass the word along

to the Air Force.

And I'm very grateful for that. Thank you. I was told by a friend of mine that the plane was the first to land in a world known to the country that a shoot-em-down order had been issued. Well, there was nothing secret about it, because as a matter of fact, the newspapers carried it in front-page headlines. But as soon as the word got around the country, some very prominent scientists, including Dr. Albert Einstein, who was partly a visionary, insisted the shoot-em-down order be rescinded. And Dr. Einstein's argument was this, which I think makes sense. Anything with millions of miles of space would undoubtedly be able to take care of themselves after they got there. Especially against such things as rockets or machine gun bullets. And Einstein told the president, Mr. Truman, that he thought we shouldn't start anything that we might not be able to finish.

Mr. Truman called in a couple of his meeting and they decided, by golly, that maybe this guy Einstein had something after all.

So they called it off at 5.30 that afternoon. And that night when the unidentified objects came back over Washington, they flew right around Oval Airport between the National Airport and Andrews Field.

They flew in stair-step formation for a while and then they flew in straight-line formation and they flew singly. Not a single jet went up to annoy them. And it was due to the fact, I'm sure, that Einstein and others had put the heat on the president and had this thing stopped. But. But that was when the brass curtain fell. That's when the silence voice took over. I was right there in Washington. I had wonderful contacts, both in and out of the Pentagon and around the White House. I would conceivably be able to get a hold of information of this type. And I didn't know until 1955, or until 1954, in the middle of August, just about a month after these things first came over Washington,

68 of them were over Washington in one night in the middle of August 1954. And I didn't know that for two years later, and I probably wouldn't have known it then. The White House administration, and it was entitled for limited distribution, had to identify and track on radar screens.

And this was an information booklet for the control tower operators to enable them to follow these things and to properly record them on their charts, as they're required to do by a couple of regulations.

And there, in that thing, they list all the commercial planes that came in. What each pilot did. Each pilot saw what they saw on radar, and how the things followed the planes, how they acted when the planes turned the landing lights on them.

And it's quite a piece of business, and it's quite official, because it's Civil Aeronautics Administration. Although I am not overlooking the possibility that the CAA might be having hallucinations.

Identified flying objects, or that is not exactly correct, as I said a little while ago. But there was a sequel to my sudden severance from the microphone back in the middle of 1954. That I consider to have some bearing on this matter. I got a call from a very good friend of mine in the Pentagon. If I would be interested in doing some special work for the government. Well, I shall work. And I wasn't sure just what kind they had in mind, and I didn't want to do any in Tasmania, certainly. So I said, well, let's start working. Well, another fellow, friend of mine, and with whom I had some very close relations for several years.

I'd helped him out of a couple of holes for me. And he said, So General Gamble showed up, and he had all the gear all right.

I don't know, and I guess it doesn't make any difference now. But it developed that what he wanted was to offer me a job. And it was a job which would have paid $18,000 a year, which was the maximum salary permissible at the Pentagon at that time, before the days of inflation.

What kind of a job it was. I think that before you take a job, you should at least know what's expected of you. And I asked him about that. And he didn't want to talk about that. He didn't want to talk about that aspect of it. He wanted to talk about the money. So I asked him, I said, why is this job so important? He said, well, it has to do with national security. For money, and I have a source of income from some things that I'm doing now.

To be as patriotic as Herbert Hoover, or some of the rest of them were in days gone by, I'll donate my services to the Pentagon in the interest of national security. Oh, no, no, no. He said, no, you can't do that. You can't accept anything like that. He said, we have to pay you. I said, no, no, no. I said, no, no, no. I said, no, no, no. I said, no, no, no. I said, no, no, no. He said, oh, I can pay me a dollar a year. That makes it legal. No, no, we can't do that. We have to put you under contract. Well, why would I be interested in this job? Well, he said, this is something in which you've shown a great deal of interest. I said, has it caused you some difficulty? And, well, he said, not me personally. I said, this is the kind of a job that would really be out of this world, wouldn't it? He didn't answer. And the captain who was with him said, now, Mr. Edwards, he said, this really is a very important job. And he said, we think that you'd be very much interested in it.

And he said, well, I don't know. He said, we could do a little better than that on you money-wise. And he said, you would have a military plane to travel in when you wanted to go and see something or go talk to somebody. You could have a military plane that would take you right there. And he said, you'd get wonderful treatment, VIP treatment, nothing better. And he said, you'd love this job. But we never got together on it because I couldn't find out what in the devil they wanted. But I always had some real good suspicions about the thing. And I'm sure that had I let them put me under contract. I would probably have a better idea of what's in the files over at the Air Force than I have right now. I don't intend to. I know that perhaps some of you have some questions. I certainly don't have all the answers. Maybe you don't have all the questions. At least we could break even. But before I get around to that, I would like to tell you about something that's happened.

You frequently hear the statement that there is no proof that these things are from out in space. The next time you hear that, here's your answer. On December the 13th, 1954, over the city of Campanile, in Brazil, which is about 150 miles inland from Rio, it's the largest city in the province of Sao Paulo. After sunset, but before dark, three were seen by many hundreds of people,

not all of whom were having hallucinations. One of these things appeared to be in trouble. It wobbled and it appeared to be settling.

It came down to very low altitude over a residential area and some shiny liquid began spurting out of it in some yards.

The lady, on whose sidewalk it fell, was alarmed, naturally. She ran in and called the authorities, and a lot of other people were calling them, too. After this thing had spewed out some of this liquid, she talked with the others in the cast and disappeared. All the witnesses agreed on that. The Brazilian authorities picked up the shiny metal which had run out of this thing. It was liquid when it came out and it solidified. They had it analyzed by a quite capable Brazilian metallurgist, and they agreed in their analyses that this stuff, was pure tin. This is interesting, because chemically pure tin is not available on Earth, and we have no process by which we can make it, except in microscopic quantities. Commercial tin contains many other metals, to 85% tin, but we do not have...

To make, just to make certain, they turned some of this, they turned some of it over to the Air Attaché in Rio, and it was sent to this country where it was analyzed by some Air Force scientists, and also some of it was sent to Defiance College, at Defiance, Ohio, where a Dr. Melz, who is a very well-known and metallurgist, analyzed it, and his analysis agreed with that of the Air Force and that of Brazil, and Dr. Melz also said that this is astounding, because there is no such metal on Earth. It's not available to us by any known process. One of these objects, it was not available on Earth, according to these scientists, so obviously, there is no... Actually, there is only one answer. These things brought it from somewhere else, and I think that is one of the most important pieces of evidence that has turned up, and it has, in the last 60 days, as far as I know, is the first time this has ever been officially admitted by the Brazilian government.

Our own government, of course, has nothing to say about it, or at least they're saying nothing. ...answer for you. Yes, sir.

He's giving me a lecture. Now, this young man, watching this, he says, he wants to know if I know of any instances where our modern planes flying alongside one of these things have been affected, principally in the electronics department. As far as I know, the answer is no. However, I can tell you that there was a case very recently of one of our modern planes. Actually, this was one of those F-100s. This was on the evening of July the 18th. The sun was still up, a little after 7 o'clock. ...game going on. There's quite a crowd. This F-100 went over, and in back of it, were two circular disc-shaped objects about 30 feet in diameter. They were flying side by side. They separated and passed the jet, separated again at angles from the jet, and took after one of them, and the thing jumped up in the air over the jet and flew right around over the top of it and very close to it for perhaps 15 or 20 seconds. The jet, which had intended to chase the disc,

suddenly found itself underneath the disc, and it was trying to get out from under it, apparently, because he was taking evasive tactics for about two minutes, the players and the spectators at that particular ball game stopped the ball game to watch the show in the sky, and the things finally left by turning straight up and going, they disappeared going straight up. The official explanation was that these were weather balloons. ...man held.

I think that's one of the best questions in the book, and I'd like to be able to answer you. The only thing that I can tell you is that his wife was not permitted to view the body, and I don't know whether that's news to you or not, and the Air Force never actually gave her any complete statement as to what happened. ...mantel, as most of you probably know, was the tremendous unidentified object that was reported over Kentucky. He took off from Godman Air Base in a Mustang, as I recall it, and he said that he was getting close to this thing, and according to the statements attributed to him, he said it was metallic, it was gigantic, and it was moving at a speed a little greater than that of his plane, which was then somewhere around 20,000 feet. The plane was later found actually scattered over a considerable area, as though it had broken up in the air, which doesn't make sense, because with Mustangs tell me that even though they went

into a dive with a dead pilot at the controls, the plane wouldn't disintegrate in that fashion. What happened, I don't know. I wish I could answer your question, because it would answer my question, too.

There's an interesting thing about that book that Scully wrote. I have that story all right. Oh, roughly a year before Scully's book ever came out, and it came to me from different sources, but every time I would track it back, it always went back in Denver. Friends in Denver in the business told me that might be a good policy for me, so I stayed away from the story. It didn't sound based on the same story.

Eventually, True Magazine did an inquiry into the thing, and they found that one of the mysterious scientists was a fellow who ran a radio repair shop down in Arizona somewhere, and the other fellow was a phony oil stock promoter, and those were the two mysterious scientists to whom Scully referred. Other than that, I can't tell you about the little men, but the little story was a fake. Something about your friend, Colonel Merkle. Who disappeared, was killed over... I can tell you about that. She's asking me about Colonel Merkle, who was killed over Hyattsville, Indiana, about, I guess it's been about a year and a half ago. He was flying a Mustang.

It was badly shattered in the air before it ever got to the ground. He, of course, was killed instantly. For some reason, he never made any attempt to bail out. Official story was that he had been testing a new carburetor on his plane. It's as good a story as saying that he was having hallucinations, but what actually happened in addition to that, I think, is interesting. There had been a report of an unidentified flying... And he was talking to the... ...his death, that he didn't see the thing. He said, I don't see the thing anywhere, and I don't believe it's here. ...thousand feet. He said, I'm going to turn around and come on back to the field. I don't believe there's anything up here. ...from him. A few minutes later, he was dead. ...had any sample spacecraft,

which may have been forced down, and which were unable to operate because of our... ...and the technology involved. The group in the government would be a yes or no. ...faintest idea whether we have such things. And the only thing I can tell you is that, back in 49, the sheriff had told him

that a flying saucer had... ...conducted a very intensive investigation.

In fact, I think this was the origin of the story on which Frank Scully eventually got hooked. But they came in there. They kept this rancher and his folks right on their own farm, not under arrest. They just couldn't leave. They flew patrols over me to keep out any civilian planes. And this went on for a couple of days. And then they came up with the official explanation, a beauty. The thing that this poor, deluded rancher had seen, was a box kite, a Little Tim radar target, hanging on the bottom of it. And the radar target was bent where the thing had struck the ground. And this was the thing that had plowed into the mountainside and spewing fire all over. Seeing a box kite doing that, I think that would have been more interesting than anything else. But that was the official explanation.

The supposition among the scientists who investigated that thing, at least among some of them, and among at least one member of the board of governors of NICAP, is... ...losing some sort... And that this chemically pure tin was probably used as a coolant. ...as a coolant, just like the Nautilus and the Sea...

Tin was there in the form of a coolant, which would explain why it was liquid and also probably why it was chemically pure. But what type of engine, we don't know, because evidently it was not an atomic device because the tin was not radioactive. ...evidence of that sort.

[01:07:25] Development of the main themes

...brilliant lights. On that Dumont program with Willie Lay, Tango Dam,

the thing came down and came toward him at great speed.

And the co-pilot flipped on the wing lights and then this thing turned on a blinding stream of white light in the pilot's face and the pilot thought the thing was going to collide with him. He threw this passenger plane instantly into a power dive. He dropped down to 3,000 feet. He took a 5,000-foot plunge before he could pull it out. ...passengers up on their heads out in the aisle. It didn't do them any good, really. He called the airport again at Washington. They had ambulances out there. They landed a few minutes after one o'clock. Fortunately, the passengers were only skinned up a little. Nobody really got hurt. It was about like this thing that happened recently off the coast of Florida, except this one happened at night and this brilliant light was flying in the pilot's face. The thing didn't hit him, of course, and went over him. He feels that it was due to the fact that he took prompt evasive action. For some reason or other, it tried to dazzle him.

But as to any electronic means or anything of that sort, I really don't know of any such cases. Yes, sir.

On a state... I think it's quite possible. Field in Dayton, there is a tremendous installation which cost $13 million. It was completed about a year ago, and the purpose of it is to study and develop what's successful.

But I think when they go to spending money in such lumps that they evidently anticipate some form of results, and I suspect that Mr. Hiller's probably right. We will have something in that field perhaps even sooner than 10 years.

About the flying saucer they're always going to build in Canada, that's an annual piece of baloney that's released. The only thing they do, they release the same story at about the same time each year and for the same purpose.

They put out the same piece of bunk every year about somebody's building a flying saucer in Canada. And they put it out every year.

They tried to fly one up here at Wright Field about three months ago.

These jets. And he never was able to get it up because it beat itself to pieces on the runway. And I guess they'll have to go back to the one they're going to build in Canada.

So I think that this is an unfortunate position the Air Force has taken, but yet,

something happens with which they're not familiar. And I think it's quite possible that the Air Force figures, that if they would come out with a statement that these things are interplanetary and that they have little men in them or something, I think that there would be a widespread hysteria if not down. I think that perhaps the Air Force is correct.

I think that they have been very stupid about the way they've handled the thing, but I think in the long run, their goal is probably a very good one. To let the public condition

be the eventual announcement. Our living creatures in these things.

There have been many people. I can't say that they did or don't really know

whether in these things or whether they have or have not.

Yes. The company might object.

I think that's a distinct possibility. This gentleman wants to know if I think that the government might know how these objects are propelled and that they might be reluctant to admit it or to disclose this particular method for fear of that of course is, this is some radically new source of to be objective. I think you will notice this.

That within the last few months, something has happened. A such the moon sooner than well,

this can only mean one thing that there's been some dramatic and significant breakthrough. And since the primary was that of power,

what it is, I don't know.

They have to create what we know about today.

And he said would take us to the stars at speeds in excess of the speed of light. It's difficult to set agreement

between not to carry this material.

Tomorrow, every day, a summary of all the sightings that were reported in the preceding 24 hours, they would begin to get the idea that these things are and that they're being seen all over the world, which is true. I can't, I can't answer your question as to whether they're becoming more numerous. I have a feeling that sightings by credible observer.

The only thing I can tell you there is official same field

you into the fact that there, which we inhabit.

We made that about a year and a half ago. I wish I could answer that one.

The only thing this way, he wants to know how long I think it will be before the inevitable announcement will be made. Well, I've been home. The only thing I can say is that to make this,

I think that when Admiral Hill and Cutter and Admiral Farney and General Catherine and General Kleppner and Major Dewey Farney and let you go home over here, I haven't got.

Yes, sir.

Separates by 9000 miles. The reports in the military out there and they say one of my sightings and it's 10,500 miles an hour. Now, it was not another ship or a ship or a ship.

Well, two thirds of the way back in a block, but the two thirds back was definitely as much brighter than the addition. Now, have you had many reports that can be? No, I can't. This lady is describing an object, which we saw, and what was it? One of these long torpedo shaped sightings

that was exactly like that, which have noted the extreme brilliancy of these things and a pulsating effect, which was uneven, which would be pretty close to what you're talking about. In other words, there would be brighter spots in the object and that would be a uniform brilliance.

Voting any part of the International Geophysical Year to research on the flying saucers.

Large warm water lakes down there. These lakes should not be frozen. And there was an interesting statement in connection with the Admiral Byrd's report. He said that alongside these bodies of warm water in that great ice field, he found long straight black marks, which looked like that this comes right

after Commander Arrigo of the Chilean Navy made movies of hundreds of these things circling. And that since that time, nation after nation has been sending, uh, year round. Surely they're doing something more important than just watching each other or studying this earth on which we live by sitting on top of snow. Interesting, I think that so much of this, uh, study is devoted,

uh, this geophysical year business is devoted to things which could conceivably be connected with research and investigation on unidentified flying objects.

And yet that's what the project is doing all over the country, all over the world. I think that what they're doing is actually stirring up worldwide interest in a, in a field which is either identical to or which I think the

geophysical year could question, then we'll all go.

I've seen copies of that report that the thing found on Spitsbergen did not have any Russian markings on it. What it was, I don't know, but it was a shell, a metallic shell, very similar to the descriptions of doing now.

She said, she said, what are you spitting on? She said, I'm spitting on your new dress. Mama said, what are you doing now? She said, I'm spitting on your new dress. Mama said, what are you doing now? She said, I'm spitting on your new dress. Mama said, what are you doing now? She said, I'm spitting on your new dress. I'm just waiting for more fitting interview with Frank Edwards noted commentator, such

things as the origin of flying saucers. Next on NewsHour. NewsHour continues with Bob Wright at the feature desk. In spite of official denials, reports of unidentified flying objects continue to come in from all over the country. For example, about a week ago, a Santa Ana pilot reported seeing a mysterious green object in the sky over Hawthorne. He said, it was unlike any meteor that I have ever seen. And only a minute later, thousands of persons along the West Coast reported seeing a similar object. Now, this is just one of many incidents that keep flying saucers in the news. Most people, and most aeronautical experts, deny there is such a thing. But there are others who insist they know what so-called flying saucers are. One of them is the popular author, lecturer, and news analyst, Frank Edwards. Mr. Edwards is here in Los Angeles to lecture on the origin of flying saucers. In just a moment, you'll hear his answers.

The government says it has no knowledge of anything that might be described as flying saucers.

And the majority of our scientists say that they doubt the existence of these weird objects also. However, everyone has a right to their opinion. And we think everyone has a right to be heard. And since these reports keep appearing in the news, we think they ought to be talked about. Naturally, of course, the opinions of Mr. Edwards are his own, and do not necessarily represent those of NBC or its advertisers. Mr. Edwards, first of all, what brings you here to the Los Angeles area? Well, certainly... Several things, Bob. First place, I came out here partly on a little vacation, a very brief one, that I'm going over to the atomic testing grounds to see a special weapons firing and to make some pictures and examine the debris there after some of these explosions, and also to speak here in Los Angeles at Bases Hall over on Vermont Street tomorrow night on the subject of what are the flying saucers and to show a special film on them.

Now, I understand you're an official of an organization called, I believe it is the National Committee on Aerial Phenomena, in Washington, D.C. Well, it's the National Committee for Investigating Aerial Phenomena. We call it NICAP, N-I-C-A-P. Now, that's composed largely of either scientists or former top military men like Admiral Del Marfarnie, who for more than 20 years was the head of the guided missile branch of the Navy, is the man who coined the term guided missiles, probably one of the best informed men in the world on it, General Albert Wedemeyer, who certainly needs no introduction, General Katrin, who was the head of the Air Force First Project, for investigating the saucers, and Admiral Hillencutter, who was the former head of the Central Intelligence Agency. Now, recently, I believe you made the statement that reports of flying saucers are increasing every day. Now, what proof do you have of this?

Well, I don't recall making it exactly in those words, but I can say to you that there are many reports of, not of flying saucers, but of unidentified flying objects coming in from all over the world to our organization in Washington. We get them through allied organizations, comprised primarily of scientists and military and commercial flyers all over the world. Now, Mr. Edwards, I'm sure you're familiar with what we call the optical illusion. You know that it is said that any person who is told often enough that he's going to see a flying saucer eventually is going to see one, even though it might be another object. Now, isn't that quite possible? Well, I'll, before we get into the optical illusion business here, let me say something by way of explanation. I fully agree with the Air Force that, there are no such things as flying saucers. That's only a slang term for the objects which the Air Force chases every night

under their official name of unidentified flying objects. And I agree with you that a lot of people who claim to have seen these things have misconstrued conventional objects in the air. They were not familiar with them, and they thought they were seeing something which they actually were not seeing, and some of them, I think, were publicity seekers. Well, now, isn't it true that we undoubtedly have more missiles in the air? Right now than ever before, many of which may be travel faster than the speed of sound. Now, could it not be that these could be easily mistaken for your so-called unidentified flying objects? Well, I think that some of them have been, Bob, but the ones that travel faster than the speed of sound are not going to be seen by very many people at very many places. They couldn't possibly answer all the circumstances involving these thousands of reports of UFOs. Have you ever seen any of these unidentified objects yourself?

No, sir, I have not. Then your testimony is... You're based mainly on hearsay evidence, isn't it? My testimony is based on the... Or my belief is based on the testimony of highly credible witnesses, the same ones upon whose testimony the Air Force and the other government agencies base their understandings. Well, Mr. Edwards, don't you think the leaders of our military forces have access to more information than anyone else? Therefore, if there was truth to these objects, wouldn't they say so? I don't think they would. They unquestionably have more evidence than anyone else, yes. In fact, I know... Oh, definitely, they have that. But I don't think they would say so for the simple reason that there are a lot of goonies in the population. What do you mean by that? Oh, spooks. People who would go off the deep end and begin to see little green men around their houses at night if the government came out and said flatly

that these things are probably interplanetary. I agree with the Air Force fully on that, that the thing to do is to keep to handle this thing the way they're handling it until such time as the story must break. Well, are these objects... These objects do exist. Why is it that, as far as we know, no one has ever produced one or has never produced a piece of one? Certainly, if we could see one, that would convince a lot of people in a hurry, wouldn't it? Well, a piece of one has been produced, most assuredly. Where was that? On December the 13th, 1954, at Campanar, Brazil, which is a large city, the largest city in the province of Sao Paulo. Shortly after sundown, three of these things came down out of the heavy overcast and circled the city for about 20 minutes. One of them, appeared to be in difficulty, was oscillating violently, and it was spewing out a silvery liquid. This silvery liquid turned out to be a metal when it cooled,

and the authorities came out and collected just about two pounds of it altogether. It was analyzed by the scientists for Brazil and also by Dr. Meltz at Defiance College at Defiance, Ohio, who is a famed metal urchist. The Brazilian scientists, as well as Dr. Meltz, came up with exactly the same understanding of the thing, that these things, that this substance was tin, chemically pure, which is not obtainable on Earth. Well, Mr. Edwards, many of these people whose testimony you credit, these eyewitnesses, if they are eyewitnesses and if they believe what they said, they should be willing to submit to lie detector tests, shouldn't they? Oh, yes, yes. Do you know of any who've come forward and offered to do that? No, I don't know of anyone who has actually tried to get these people to submit to lie detector tests because most of the ones with which I'm familiar are military, and commercial pilots, and people whose credibility

would generally be accepted. If you'll pardon the question, would you be willing to submit to a lie detector test for anything that you say here tonight? Well, that would be an old experience for me because I have a lie detector. I'm married. Mr. Edwards, before our time runs out, I'd like to ask you, what is your theory? Well, my feeling about the things and is exactly that of Dr. Herman Oberth, the famed German rocket scientist who headed the German government's investigation of them. He said that he believed that they came from somewhere out in space and that his colleagues concurred with him in that belief and he thinks they come from somewhere out in space, they're intelligently conceived and operated, and that they're probably propelled by distorting the gravitational field. I think he is a credible... In other words, you believe some other race is maybe observing us right now? I think that somebody may land in front of a horse someday

and say, take us to your president. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Edwards, for some fascinating ideas on flying saucers. Certainly given that you're a scientist, that's a lot to think about. I'd like to remind you, however, that Mr. Edwards' opinions are his own and do not necessarily represent those of NBC or of its advertisers.

Hey, from the air age and then some today, good afternoon, everyone. This is Ruth Ashton with the Woman's News Desk. Just briefly, the top stories, and here's a bulletin from Hilo, Hawaii. Military air transport service plane with 67 persons aboard landed in Hilo safely at 226 Pacific Daylight Time after struggling more than 1,000 miles at low altitude with two of its engines. The plane lost its two left engines about 1,500 miles out from Hawaii after the point of no return and has been continuing at just about 100 feet altitude, struggling to make Hilo, Hawaii before its fuel ran out. And according to this report, the pilot, Major Samuel Tyson of Vacaville, California, has landed his plane safely. In other news, we'll mention the word flying saucers and you can get an argument, but there still are many people sticking by their beliefs. They'll admit that some unidentified flying objects, may be secret military developments,

some may be weather balloons, and some may be optical illusions. But they maintain some are none of these things. And just what they are is a matter of study by numerous groups, including one with some 8,000 members, largely from technical fields, called the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. One of NICAP's board members, news analyst, author, and lecturer, Frank Edwards, has arrived on the West Coast to talk about this controversial subject tonight in Baytown, California, in Dacey's Hall, here in Los Angeles. Mr. Edwards, what will you say about what flying saucers really are? Well, it's my opinion, based on the statements of Dr. Herman Oberth and many of our own top scientists and military men, that these things are probably interplanetary in origin and that they operate by distorting the gravitational field. I would say, to quote from a group of scientists at Oak Ridge, that these are operated by intelligent beings

of a very high order. From another planet, you feel? Yes. I feel so. I presume so. Yes, ma'am. Could you give us the characteristics now? Just what do they look like? Well, many of us haven't seen flying saucers. Well, as a matter of fact, I have never seen one either, although I've been interested in them for a long time. But the descriptions given by credible witnesses, such as military and commercial pilots and astronomers and others who have seen these and are competent to describe them, show that they fall into two groups. One is the rocket-shaped thing, and these are becoming increasingly rare. I know of only two such sightings this year of the giant rocket-shaped thing, and the other is the rocket-shaped thing, The other is a flat, circular, shiny, disc-shaped thing, which has a very shallow, shiny dome on top of it, very shallow. The thickness is only about one-sixth of the breadth of the thing. Now, who says there are such things?

Where does this come from? Where is the evidence? The evidence? Well, the evidence is in the files of the Air Force and various others in the form of pictures and reports from thousands of military and commercial pilots who are quite competent to, to describe these things when they see them. And the evidence is also in the, for instance, in the form of a substance which fell from one of these objects on the evening of December 13th, 1954 at Campanar, Brazil, when one of these things got into trouble. There were three of them over the city. They were seen by hundreds of people at the time. And this liquid, this shiny liquid, ran out of this thing, and when they collected it, the Brazilian government immediately took over and collected it. They got about two pounds of tin, which was chemically pure. Now, this is, this is remarkable because, as they said, and as Dr. Meltz at the Viance College in Ohio, a very famed metallurgist,

also said when he analyzed it for the Brazilian and American governments, this is absolutely pure tin, which is not obtainable on Earth. So, there is... There is ample evidence, I can assure you. There is ample evidence, I can assure you.

[01:40:31] Questions and closing discussion

Photographic and eyewitness account stuff and, for example, this one case of the metal, which they believe was used as a coolant in the engine. Well, now, the government, frequently, makes statements of the Air Force, particularly sort of knocking down this idea of flying saucers. If you will read those... Did I interrupt you there? No. If you will read those carefully, you will find that they knock down the flying saucers. They ridicule them. I am in hearty accord with the Air Force on that. I, like the Air Force, do not believe that there are any such things as flying saucers. I'll go along with them on that because flying saucers is the slang term for the objects which the Air Force chases every night under the name of unidentified flying objects, ask them about unidentified flying objects and you'll get a very different story. You think you'll get the story, though? Do you feel... Eventually, yes. Eventually, I think you will get the story.

Now, based on the theory that there are such things, when were they most recently seen? Well, they generally appear in greatest numbers about 50 to 55 days after our near approaches to Mars. And then they are seen with great frequency for a period of about 100 to 120 days. But they are never completely out of our atmosphere. They are being sighted right now. For instance, night before last, there were seven of them over Chevy Chase, Maryland, which is at the outskirts of Washington, D.C. They were seen by many hundreds of people. What were they like? They were the flat, circular, and they were disc-shaped things and they were faintly glowing, a kind of a yellow-orange. And there have been hundreds of people testify to the fact that they did see these. Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, on the evening of July the 18th at Paris, Illinois, they were having a Little League baseball game and the game, they woke up as a jet came over,

pursued or followed, let's say, by two of these shiny disc-shaped things and they passed the jet and got around in front of it and the jet took after one of them, which easily eluded the jet, and they played around with the jet for a couple of minutes while everyone at this ballgame, including the players, stopped to watch the spectacle. The things finally turned up on edge, according to these witnesses, turned up on edge and shot straight up into the atmosphere and finally disappeared at great altitude. Of course, this sounds rather spooky. It also sounds like good science fiction, and I know you people are trying to impress us that it is not fiction. This group with which I'm associated is called the National Committee for Investigation of Aerial Phenomena, NICAP, and it's headed by Admiral Delmer Forney, who for 20 years was the top man in our guided missile work, and also by Admiral Hillencutter, who was formerly with,

he was the head of the Central Intelligence Agency, by General Albert Wedemeyer and other top military men who are in a position to know what the government knows, and they also have the same opinion that I do, that these things are from out in space somewhere, let's say. Do you think it's valuable for all people to be a little more concerned about them? I think Douglas MacArthur, who is hardly a visionary, summed it all up on December the 7th, 1955 in an interview for the New York Times when he said all of a sudden in his interview, he said the people of the world had better get together for the next war will be an interplanetary war. And they went back to him the following day and asked him to amplify that statement. He said, thank you, I've said too much already. That was news analyst, author and lecturer, Frank Edwards, a board member of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. Now we'll hear more about...

...are as a matter of study

by numerous groups, including one with some 8,000 members largely from technical fields called the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. One of NICAP's board members, news analyst, author and lecturer, Frank Edwards, has arrived on the West Coast to talk about this controversial subject and Mr. Edwards, what will you say about what flying saucers really are? Well, it's my opinion based on the statements of Dr. Herman Oberth and many of our own top scientists and military men that these things are probably interplanetary in origin and that they operate by distorting the gravitational field. I would say, to quote from a group of scientists at Oak Ridge, that these are operated by intelligent beings of a very high order. But where is the evidence? The evidence? Well, the evidence is in the files of the Air Force and various others in the form of pictures and reports from thousands of military and commercial pilots

who are quite competent to describe these things when they see them. And the evidence is also in the, for instance, in the form of a substance which fell from one of these objects on the evening of December 13, 1954 at Campanar, Brazil when one of these things got into trouble. There were three of them over the city. They were seen by hundreds of people at the time. And this liquid, this shiny liquid ran out of this thing. And when they collected it, the Brazilian government immediately took over and collected it. They got about two pounds of tin, which was chemically pure. Now, this is remarkable because, as they said, and as Dr. Meltz at Defiance College in Ohio, a very famed metallurgist, also said when he analyzed it for the Brazilian and American governments, this is absolutely pure tin, which is not obtainable on Earth. Well, now, the government frequently makes statements of the Air Force, particularly sort of knocking down this idea

of flying saucers. I, like the Air Force, do not believe that there are any such things as flying saucers. I'll go along with them on that because flying saucers is the slang term for the objects which the Air Force chases every night under the name of unidentified flying objects. Ask them about unidentified flying objects and you'll get a very different story. I think Douglas MacArthur, who was hardly a visionary, summed it all up on December the 7th, 1955 in his book, an interview for the New York Times, when he said all of a sudden in his interview, he said the people of the world had better get together for the next war will be an interplanetary war. And they went back to him the following day and asked him to amplify that statement. He said, thank you, I've said too much already. That was news analyst, author, and lecturer Frank Edwards, a board member of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. Perhaps the greatest

aerial phenomenon of this past week, the dramatic flight to safety, as told by newsman Dick Leonard of station KCBS San Francisco.

This is the Tom Duggan show. Mr. Duggan will be along very shortly. He stopped to sign a few autographs for some people out there. I don't know who they are. He's been late on numerous occasions. The money has gone to his head. What can you do? That's Mr. Duggan. Please don't applaud. Why are you late tonight, Mr. Duggan? You've been waiting here for a minute from around the air for a minute. I thought we had four minutes. Ms. Tom Duggan will be here with this program until 1230. I think we have an interesting program for you tonight. We have Jana Lund who kissed Elvis Presley in the movie Loving You. She's just signed with Liberty Records. And we have Mrs. Evelyn Isley who saw six flying saucers over Whittier last week. Not one at a time. All together. And so it's going to be interesting to talk to her. She said, I saw her before the program. She stopped in the office for a minute. She says, I know you. She says, you're worse than the money I make.

She says, I know you. She says, you're worse than the where you terrorize your guests. But that's not so. I'm known as kindly Uncle Tom. Our telephone girl is Crash Isley. Mrs. Isley, is that it? It's nice to see you. Evelyn. You've had quite an experience. And we all wanted to hear more about it. Do you live in Whittier? Yes, East Whittier. East Whittier. Exactly where is Whittier? Is it on the coast or just where is it located? I'm a stranger out here, man. No, it's about 12 miles east of Los Angeles. Is it near a racetrack? That's how I... Which track is it closest to? Los Alamitos. Uh-huh. And so how long have you been living in Whittier? Oh, I guess about 15 years. Are you a flying saucer devotee? Are you one of these people that go to the conventions at Giant Rock or wherever it is? No. You're not. But are you interested in flying saucers? Uh, I have been for the last two years. Have you studied up on people from outer space and things like that?

Well, let's just say I've studied up on sightings and usually it's always somebody way out in the boondocks at 4 o'clock in the morning that has seen a saucer and this happened at 7.19 on the 22nd of August. You're going to plunge right into it. All right. At 7.19? In the evening. Which was still light and beautiful clear sky. You were at home? Yes. And my neighbor's little girl, eight years old, came running in and made the remark there were two great big eyes up in the sky. Well, nobody pays attention to an eight-year-old but two seconds later she came in hollering that there were jets chasing. So everybody made a dash outside to see what it was all about and my husband who is one of these I don't believe it unless I can see it people, I've been arguing for two years flying saucers. You've been arguing that there were flying saucers for two years. and he didn't believe it and as I told him he's never seen the South Pole either but somebody took a picture

and told him it was there and he believed that. Uh-huh. That's a very good argument. He came running in and grabbed the binoculars and he was yelling flying saucers so I went out and directly overhead were two great big round metallic disks. Two? This is a bit of a disappointment. Now there's six. Well, the others came later. Oh. All right. Okay, so these two were out there. Uh-huh. How far were they? Right above your house or where were they? Right above the house. About how many feet up would you say? I don't know. Could you give an estimate? A thousand feet? Five hundred feet? No, I'd say about two thousand feet. There were quite a ways up there then. Yeah. But they were still discernible. Oh, yes. Uh-huh. And pretty soon What were they doing? Just hovering around? Uh-huh. And pretty soon here came a couple of jets chasing. And it was like trying to catch the super chief with a bicycle. They couldn't get anywhere near them. These were our planes?

Well, I don't think they were the Russians. Well, if you can't tell, if the Martians were there, why couldn't the Russians have been there too? They were ours and then the two saucers accelerated apparently speed and went up. And as they went up they turned from orange to red. And the jets went after them and as soon as they left here came four more. And they were the saucers. And they were paired up two and two. So we had an interterrestrial telescope. Huh? An interterrestrial telescope. Just happened to have it around the house? No. My neighbor's hobby is astronomy. And he has a great big telescope that's on a tripod. It's a big job. Yeah. And they call it an interterrestrial? Well, it's the Bushnell telescope. And you can see the moon and the stars and craters on the moon. It's quite a thing. Uh-huh. And he said, set it up outside. These four jets just hovered around up there. You mean the four flying saucers? The four saucers, yeah. And he set it up

and used a 30-power eyepiece. And through the eyepiece you could see the domes on the jets or on the saucers. Did you see any movement inside? No. No one came out waving a Martian flag or anything. No, but I mean, did you see any shadowy people moving around or anything like that? No, just the domes. Uh-huh. And they stayed around for, oh, I should imagine a good ten minutes. Where no more jets came to chase them off. No. And then they took off. They were going in a northeastern direction and then they went east. And three of them as they started off east expelled what I would guess would be a vapor. It looked like smoke but it didn't last very long. Uh-huh. And then they just seemed to disappear. So we went out. Three of them? The last four. Well, the four, but three of them had this vapor, but the other one didn't. The vapor, uh-huh. And then they just seemed to disappear out into the east. So we went in and we called the Air Defense Filter Center

in Pasadena. Yeah. And got a very interesting answer. Jets, what jets? There were no jets in that area. There hadn't been. And there were nine of, uh, eight of us that had seen them. And then when the newspaper clipping came out... What newspaper clipping? The Whittier News. I called the examiner and they took it down and were going to check with the Air Force and nothing happened after that. But the Whittier News printed it. And we received word from five individuals that had seen the same thing that weren't about apparently to say anything. One man said that his wife came running in the back door saying that she'd seen a flying saucer and he told her she was nuts. Now what do they look like? The conventional flying saucer except they had a dome on them? Actually what you would see, a saucer with a disc. It's a disc and then there's sort of a dome on top. What do you think that's where they drive or something? It's the dome, I mean. I wouldn't know.

One didn't land. You see, I've never talked to the little green men. Why do you think that they didn't land? Weren't you people friendly? I have a very small backyard.

Well, would you have been if they had tried to land? Would you have been frightened? No, actually none of us had any fear. We were totally amazed because as I said, it's always somebody else or some crackpot that's writing a book about their trip in a flying saucer hither and yon and we never thought we'd see them. But they had to be plain, especially for my husband to believe in them. Now he believes in them. In fact, he was so shook up he went off without his lunch for three days. Really? You must be quite hungry by now. How long ago did this happen? This happened a week ago Thursday, 22nd of August. And now, you say that you have been interested in flying saucers for the last two years. Mm-hmm. You don't think that you're interested in the flying saucers has somehow or other become a psychosis or something? Something like that where you might have dreamed that you saw them? You're quite sure that you actually did? Well, I'll tell you, I get all of these

nice smiles if I say anything like, I won't get her mad. Who knows, she may get violent and my milkman's been real mad. If you're going to get violent, for heaven's sakes, get violent on camera because it'll help the show measurably. But we didn't figure that you would, you little darling. But anyway, I don't believe in flying saucers and I don't know. With eight people there, it's hard to explain how eight people could drink that much at the same time, sort of. Well, when my husband saw them, he didn't have a thing to drink. But after he looked at them, he went in and had something, I'll tell you. He was... But it didn't bother me and as I said, having so many people see them and to pick them up through a telescope and through binoculars, it could not have been... Well, that's why you say five other people. So there are eight at your two houses, your neighbors and yours, and then five other people volunteer the information. Now, thirteen people

is that constitute a majority in East Whittier or is that... Would you say that you're still a numerically small group that saw the flying saucers? Oh, a very small group. Well, don't you think that it's strange that only thirteen people saw the flying saucers if they were hanging around up there with jets chasing them? Well, how often do you walk around looking up? Oh, quite often. I do. Sometimes I look down too for coins that might be dropped. But at the same time, you notice the sky when you're out, don't you think? I suppose. But there was no noise. There was no noise whatsoever. I mean, usually if you hear an airplane go over or a jet or a passenger plane, you always hear noise. And there wasn't a noise. Is there anything besides the fact that they looked like the usual, you know, models of flying saucers, there's nothing different about these at all? No. And they didn't try to communicate with you in any way? No, unfortunately.

Can you devise any reason why there'd be six of them? No, I can't. And then the two took off and then that left four. Now, having had this experience, do you know of any other person that has seen a bunch of flying saucers like that? Is this the largest covey that we've ever flushed in this country? Or has there been other groups of sex seen? No, I think there were more if you take the lights that were seen over White Sands, New Mexico. Whether they were flying saucers or not, I don't know. But if you take that, there were more. There was quite a few seen over there? I didn't know this was news, to me. I haven't studied up on flying saucers. Too much every once in a while we have somebody report on flying saucers, but there was a bunch of them seen there. Yes. Isn't that a proving grounds? Well, there was also the incident, yes, and there was also the incident over the White House. Uh-oh. Are you sure that wasn't Eisenhower's helicopter? Dulles.

Huh? It was Dulles coming in for a landing. There wasn't a regular scheduled plane, so he hopped the flying saucer and got in. Do you believe in Martians, Evelyn? Uh, not particularly. Well, you must believe if you've seen these flying saucers and you do believe in people from outer space. Well, let me put it this way. I don't think that it is a government project at all because actually people have been interested in it and findings have been reported since 1947. And for ten years, that's an awful long time to fiddle around with a project. And also, the Santa Ana Independent came out with a statement at the head of the Aeronautics Bureau that they were issued orders from Washington that any of their jets were to shoot down any flying saucers if they could get near them. The Santa Ana paper came out and said this? That the jets were to shoot them down? July 20th, 1956. Uh-huh. Well, that's news to me. Of course, if it's an unfriendly aircraft,

I think the best thing to do is take a couple of pot shots at it, don't you? Well, except that I imagine the men in the airplanes don't because they don't know what they'd be shot back at with. Well, but after all, that's the chance they're just going to have to take when they join up when they rush to the colors like that. Yeah, that's the way they'll go about it. What do you think they would be shot back at with? I really don't. But you're worried about it. Do you think they're more advanced than we are? Well, I'm not worried about it, but it stands to reason if anybody is able to develop, what should I say, an airplane or a mode of transportation that far advanced than ours. Well, so it can go a little faster than ours. It doesn't mean that it's particularly just because those jets couldn't catch it doesn't mean that we don't have a jet that might be able to, huh? They couldn't even touch them because your jet cannot just stop and drop in altitude

or go straight up or completely turn and go the opposite direction. Well, then these things maneuvered above you there to a degree. Oh, yeah. It was sort of like an air show. Do you think that they were trying to impress the natives of East Whittier with their... No, I really don't know what they were doing up there since I didn't speak with them. No, I know you did. You say you were very emphatic about that. I don't know. I'm sort of glad that you didn't, really, because I think you'd have some terrible message from us because you seem to be on their side, Evelyn, frankly. Covenistic, but at the same time, if the jets were ours, why, I don't like to bet on a slow horse, but... Well, I'm glad they didn't catch them because it was right over our house. Well, what difference does it make? If they'd come down, just guess where they would have landed. Well, not in your yard, certainly. It was too small. Probably right to the house. Well, I'm glad

they didn't either because otherwise you could have come here and told us about it. Well, now, if you see them again, will you come back and let us know? And will you try to take pictures the next time? Well, I'll tell you, that was a very unfortunate situation. We were all so surprised at actually seeing them that nobody thought about taking pictures. You thought about dragging out this interterrestrial telescope. How come you didn't think about a little bitty thing like a camera that could conveniently have been there? Here you are lugging this cannon out to take a big shot with a 30-inch lens. I didn't lug the cannon. You must have taken all eight of you to drag it out of the house. No, it's on a tripod. You could pick it up. A little effort. I see. Well, I'm not in too good a condition, so I probably have to have help. Well, Evelyn, thank you very much for being on the program. And we have some presents for you. We have a Dalton cashmere sweater

from Mr. Bob of Long Beach, and we have some My Sin by Long Van. It was awfully nice of you to come down on the show. Thank you. So long. All I can say is watch it. They're getting closer and closer. The best thing to do, I guess the only defense we have is to have a small backyard so they can't land close to you. About the most wonderful thing that can happen to a golf fan is due to the same obstacles in the sky Thursday night, and one woman called the Griffith Park Observatory, and they told her it might be Jupiter's or Mars moving around. Six Jupiters? What about the six? They said it might be Jupiter or Mars. Well, try to appear friendly if they come over your house. Wave to them, because they might be up there one Martian is saying to the other, are the natives friendly? Did you meet any geisha girls when you were overseas? Yeah.