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1960s Flying Saucers By Ben Hunter Interviews Daniel Fry 47m P268

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[00:00] Opening remarks and introduction

is Mr. Dan Fry, an old friend of mine and a man who says that he has flown in a flying saucer and has heard from and talked with the people from outer space. This will be a contrast to the interview on flying saucers we had yesterday, where the Air Force said, uh-uh, and we'll be very interested to see what Dan Fry has to say about it in just a minute. But we're going to pause first for station identification. Hi, glad you stuck around. The subject of the next hour on this program, flying saucers. And our guest, as we mentioned a few moments ago, Mr. Dan Fry. In fact, I believe he's Dr. Dan Fry now, and he just received a Ph.D. for his work in some of the books that he's written. And, of course, remember that if you have any questions you'd like to direct to Dan Fry, you telephone us at Hollywood 66148. Now, that phone number is not listed in the telephone book, so you have to remember it or jot it down someplace, and we will flash it on the screen from time to time.

Hollywood 66148, we'll put you on the air over this thing, and you can then ask Dan Fry any question that you have in mind. Hollywood 66148, Dan, welcome back. Good to see you again. Let's see, I think we'd better start by giving a brief history of your little flying saucer experience.

Well, I would hardly call it little, but your flying saucer experience, so that people know just exactly what the background is, and then we can sort of proceed from there. Now, you actually, I think, were... You are, as a matter of fact, at the present time working in missiles, I believe, isn't that right? And you were out at the White Sands Proving Grounds when this occurred. And as I recall, you saw something out there, heard something, you were out walking and you saw this thing land, and you went up to it, is that right? Well, why don't you continue from there? You know the story better than I do. Actually, Ben, I think practically everyone listening tonight has heard it at least five or six or maybe eight or ten times. I know you've had to tell it many times. But it in itself is something that was of interest. Only to me, at the time, I prefer to, much prefer to spend time discussing the subject in general.

Now, this was only the way in which I first became interested in the subject, because prior to that time, while I had heard many reports, I hadn't made up any, had any opinion on the subject at all, hadn't come to any conclusions. But in this particular occasion, I observed an object which, I don't believe could have been created by any technology available on earth at that time. It might possibly be done now, probably will be done in the next five or ten years. But I don't believe that it could have been then. I didn't see any individuals who were from out of this world, or who even claimed to be from out of this world.

In fact, I didn't see any individuals at all. I did hear communication which purportedly came from, you know, came from a more distant and much larger craft or object,

[03:00] Interview segment

through some type of communication device, which I assumed to be much like our radio intercom systems, although I don't know. The effect was the same, that it was possible to communicate, to discuss and to ask questions and get answers. Lane, why did you abort this thing? As a result of an expression of skepticism, perhaps, perhaps. I don't know what to say to some of the things that were said. I was invited to make a short test-hop in the craft. Yes, this was not offered to me for the purpose of proving anything to the world. It was simply for the purpose of proving something to me. And it did that very convincingly. And as I recall the story, I'm asking Dan to go through this again. As he says, he's told it thousands of times. He's even told it before on this program. But just in the thought that there may be some of you that may not be familiar with it, I thought it was worth repeating. I'm repeating in a very brief form.

You then, I think, got into this thing. And it was apparently remote controlled. And it flew to the East Coast and back in some record time. What was it? It was approximately 30 minutes. That would have been considered pretty high speed then. Actually, it's pretty slow now. It's less than half of the speed that any of our orbital satellites make. And it's less than a quarter of the speed that the deep space probes. Well, now, this experience convinced you that there were visitors here, interplanetary visitors. And I wonder if, since that time, you have had any other contact with them or ever had any opportunity to visit with any of them. I have never seen, so far as I know, I have never seen any individual who was born on any place other than the surface of this planet.

I have, on several occasions, had communication with some sort of intelligent being.

Which purported to be from some other portion of this universe. Dan, what was the nature of this communication? Was it just a voice out of the air or was it a radio thing or what? In one case, it was connected with a radio transmission. In the other case, there was no gadgetry on this end of the thing at all. Although I think probably there was on the other. I think this is, it can be explained technically as electronic modulation of the auditory nerve. I have gone into this before. I can duplicate it with fairly simple electronic equipment. We don't actually hear sound waves at all. The sound waves striking our eardrum oscillates the eardrum, which in turn oscillates the tympan on the anvil, the movable portion of the ear on the fixed portion. The auditory nerve lies between these and a very minute galvanic current is modulated on the auditory nerve to the brain. It is this minute galvanic current that we perceive, that the brain perceives as sound.

And if that galvanic current can be modulated by any means other than sound, we will still hear sound exactly as though there were a vibration in the air present. I think that this is probably the basic explanation of how it was done. I don't have any concept of the gadgetry that was used to accomplish it. Well, now, since then, of course, you've become tremendously active in the flying saucer field and have talked with all of the contactees of UFOs and so on and so forth. You have apparently become more and more convinced of their actuality and the fact that they do exist and are visiting from outer planets. And yesterday afternoon, see this program is on Monday through Friday in the afternoons, and yesterday afternoon our guest interview was Lieutenant Colonel Larry Tacker, who is the U.S. Air Force's official spokesman for flying saucers. Did you happen to see the program, Dan? No, unfortunately, I didn't have a chance.

Most of my time is... I'm committed pretty well in advance and I can't always do the things that I would like to do. I haven't even been able to get the book yet. I see you have it. I have it here, yes, because I've been lying in wait for you, you see. I'm going to get a copy at the earliest possible opportunity. I do have an article in a magazine, Space Magazine, which quotes it at some length. Well, now, to me, one of the most impressive statements that he made, and it seems to me a little bit hard to refute, so I'm going to throw it at you. Colonel Tacker said, he said, all you have to do is to consider the equipment that we, meaning the Air Force, have to discern whether or not there are visitors in the sky, and the equipment that the UFO devotees have. He says, here we have every modern piece of equipment known to man, and he says we have the facilities of every university in the country, we have astronomers and astronomical observatories and trained observers,

and he says, how can these people who are not even trained observers and have no particular equipment outside of maybe a homemade telescope, how can they sit there and say that the Air Force is not telling the truth? Well, I have never said that the Air Force is not telling the truth. I don't think the Air Force has ever really said anything on this subject. They have issued in 1953 and still issue a statement which purports to be the latest statement on the subject, although it was written, I believe, first in 1953 and hasn't been altered by a word since that time. This statement, if considered carefully, is very carefully written. That is, it doesn't say anything for certain except that they don't have any piece of hardware which they could attribute to an extraterrestrial source. Now, I don't know exactly how they would go about determining whether or not a piece of hardware was from an extraterrestrial source or not.

It's too bad I couldn't have been present with that. Well, I wish so, too. I would like to get the two of you together sometime. We have a question here for you. I'm getting notices from our director, Johnny Rich, so let's take this first question and see what this person would like to ask. Who's speaking, please? Hello? Yes. This is Ladd-Gates. Ladd-Gates, what is your question? Come again, I didn't get that. I'm curious what the doctor has his Ph.D. in. This was in cosmology. It was presented in a paper. I don't know. I don't know. It was presented by the, from London, from the St. Andrews University in London.

This was purely an honorary thing. It was given for the Booksteps to Stars, for some of the material in the Booksteps to Stars, which had previously been picked up and commented on by Dr. Perry Moon of MIT and several men in Caltech because it made statements concerning the positive and negative aspects of gravity, which were completely unacceptable at the time the book was written, first written some five years ago, but have since been accepted by almost every astronomer and physicist. And it was merely because of this, the work in the book, which was written long before it was accepted, which has since been accepted, that impelled them to grant this degree just as a recognition of having put out this material first. Anything else, Lad Gates? No, no, that is all. Thank you very much. Fine, thank you. I enjoyed your program very much. Thank you. Well, let's see. We have another one here. Hello? Hello, Ben Hunter?

Yes. Who's speaking, please? Reverend Persan. How are you? Fine, thank you. Reverend Persan? Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. I have a question for Dan Fry. He made...

There is one answer to this question, which I always get, and it's always asked on every, every time I like to speak on the subject, people ask why me, why not someone else. The only answer I can give is that we have every year a thing that's called

the Irish sweepstakes. The capital prize of this lottery, which it actually is, is a very large prize, and every year someone wins it. One year a plumber will win it, and one year a mechanic will win it, and one year someone else will win it. But no matter who it is that wins it, everyone else says, well, why did it have to be him? Why couldn't it be me? The only answer I can give is that it has to be someone. And the only reason I think probably that I was chosen is I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Excuse me, Reverend Persan, excuse me.

Could you turn the volume of your television set down just a little bit? Oh, sure. It's just coming in a little bit too loud. Oh, and then I reach over here. Okay. That'll get rid of that squeak. How's that? That's much better. Better? Okay. Why don't they say, take us to your leader? Oh, no. Gee, I might not like the guy. How would you suggest they go about making themselves known?

You must have read the White Sands Incident,

because that's the exact question I asked them and the exact words that I used. I got quite a logical answer. It takes some time to give it in the first place. But we can take one or two of these aspects, one or two of these questions, assuming that they are a law-abiding people and assuming that they are familiar with our laws. Perhaps, you know, having monitored our television broadcasts and our radio broadcasts and learned our language through monitoring television broadcasts, assuming that they know our laws, they would know that it is absolutely unlawful for any craft from any foreign nation, any foreign country, to land anywhere in the United States without specific permission. There is no way in our law today in which that permission could be given. There's no way it could even be asked for. If they were to use radios similar to ours and radio down, for instance, to ask for permission to land at the International Airport in Los Angeles,

and if any radio station there replied to them, they would be guilty of a felony because they would be communicating with an unlicensed station. If a craft of any sort, any extraterrestrial craft, should land on the White House lawn or at International Airport and any individual stepped forth from that craft, the moment his feet touched the ground, he would be guilty of at least five felonies. He would be guilty of the violation of five federal laws, at least half a dozen state laws, and about 15 or 20 county ordinances. He wouldn't have any health certificate. He wouldn't have any immigration quota. He wouldn't have any passport. He wouldn't have any visa. He wouldn't have any of the things that we require from people coming in from other countries. It would be absolutely impossible for any person from space to land legally in any part of our country at any time. We simply haven't set up laws to arrange for this sort of thing.

Well, Dan, if they're advanced so technologically that they could even communicate to you by causing modulation on the auditory nerve, why couldn't they get in contact in that manner or in any manner with the leaders of our country, with Mr. Kennedy? Well, they probably could. I'm just pointing out one of the answers that can be given to a question like this. They probably could, and there are many people who believe that they have. I don't have any specific evidence on this, so I don't make any statements. Well, Mr. Fry, you will have to forgive me if I say that I won't accept that answer. No, it isn't a question of stupidity.

It's a question that all people whose job it is to enforce the law are sworn to enforce those laws. They aren't given the right to make decisions and make exceptions to those laws. They take an oath to enforce those laws exactly as the laws are written. You know, Mr. Fry, if they did that, all...

Reverend, you've got a very good point, and thank you very much. We've got the pause, however, so we'll have to bid you adieu for the moment. Thanks, Ben, and good night. Good night. I've only once got it, but I've got my... Oh, I see. Well, we can have people write. We were just talking about Dan's book here. He's got a new book out. He's got several of them out, actually, Put Steps to the Stars and so on. This one is called Atoms, Galaxies, and Understanding. And as we talk here, you may become interested in... You want to get a close-up of that? As we talk here, you may become interested in purchasing the book or something. If so, write to me, Ben Hunter, KTTV, Hollywood 28, and I will see that your letter is forwarded to Dan Fry so that he can answer it and you can get in touch with him about anything in the world that you want to write him about, as a matter of fact. Dan, taking up where Reverend Persson left off a moment ago,

I think she's got an awfully good point. I mean, it does seem to me, too, that if a flying saucer were to come out of the room into the sky and land at International Airport, I think that very possibly the thinking individuals that operate the airport would say protocol and regulations be hanged. Let's see who's flying this thing. Ben, have you seen a film called Seconds for Survival? I don't believe I have, Dan. This is a film which is made to show some of the protections that we have set up around this country in case of... a missile attack from foreign countries. We have several lines of defense set up, the B News line, the Do line. We have now, it's assumed now, that in case of a missile attack originating from the Soviet Union, the probable continued existence of at least 25 or 30 percent of the entire population of the United States might depend on action that had to be taken within about a 30 second. Well, that's so, yes.

So, pilots have orders in these cases. It doesn't have anything directly to do with UFOs. It has to do with any object which is unidentified and which does not answer radio command, which does not identify itself, and which is pursuing any course toward the center of this country. The orders are quite explicit and they don't have time to argue or talk about it. They don't have time to argue or talk back or think or anything else. If the object doesn't identify itself, it has to be shot down. Well, if that's the case, how are they landing and talking to these people? Well, they have abilities which we do not have yet. This, again, is not a complete answer. It's just one approach because I'm quite sure that if any of this particular group with which I communicated had any real desire or any important reason to make themselves known, that is to force everyone in this country to accept their existence, I don't think they'd have

any difficulty in doing it. The problems that arise, would arise, under these circumstances, I think are probably better understood by them than they are by many of us. If you suddenly place an entire population in a position where it is forced to accept something for which it is completely unprepared psychologically, socially, spiritually, and economically, you can do a tremendous amount of damage. This, again, is something that requires several hours to go into to demonstrate the things that can occur as a result. Now, usually, the stark answer given to why don't they land is the answer that they are aware that this would create a panic. And usually, the Orson Welles broadcast

[20:46] Development of the interview themes

is quoted as an evidence of this. Now, this is something entirely different. The Orson Welles broadcast was a broadcast which was depicting an actual armed attack on the people here. And to those who tuned in late and were not aware of the fact that it was just a show, it was considered to be a news item and people thought we were under actual attack. And so, of course, a considerable panic ensued and then several people died as a result of it. I don't think that the mere announcement of the existence of extraterrestrials would cause this panic. It would, however, set up a condition under which panics of tremendous order could be created by almost anyone at any time. If, for instance, the President of the United States should casually announce to reporters at some news conference that he was perfectly well aware of the fact that we were under at least occasional observation by intelligent beings not of this earth, beings who had progressed

considerably beyond us in the scientific field and who could, if they chose, take us over completely any morning between breakfast and lunch, this in itself is a statement. Of course, he wouldn't make that last statement if he were sane. But whether he made it or not, that fact would be implicit in his very admission that they existed. Because if they existed, if they have come to us through all the distances of space, if they have craft that are so maneuverable that we can't even approach them, the best thing we have, of course, we're defenseless. Of course, they could take us over any time they chose. That fact would be implicit in the admission that they existed. And I think any official, any person in high enough position so that his word would be taken would think not only once, twice, but a lot of times before he made a statement which could result in a situation of that sort. I think he would be placed in a very difficult position.

Well, let's take another call here and let somebody else ask a question. Who is this speaking, please? This is Clyde Hurley, Ben. Clyde Hurley, what's your question? Well, I would like to ask... To answer the question,

I first have to correct what apparently is a misapprehension. I don't think that the fact that they might be imprisoned has anything to do with their not landing. I don't think there's any official anywhere in this country who could take any one of these beings in charge or in tow if they didn't want to be taken in tow. It isn't that they are not violating the law because of fear of consequences. They don't violate the law because it is the law. They have no fear of the consequences at all. Well, are they afraid of it? I don't think that they are afraid of it, but I think they realize that this condition could well ensue. But don't you think

it would be a wise thing if... It would probably be probably be wise and many people think it has been done. I don't have any evidence on it, so I don't have any opinion on whether it has or not. This again, of course, is assuming that they are eager to have our officialdom realize their existence. I don't know whether they do or not. I have passed anthills many times in the backyard. I have watched the ants become interested in the things that they were doing, the building of their nests and so forth. I have never asked any of them to take me to their leader and I don't think I would be any more interested in their leader than I was in any of the workers. We have a class consciousness, a caste consciousness here on earth which is best represented by this old statement, take me to your leader. I don't think actually they are any more interested in our leaders than they are in anyone else. Dan, I would like to ask you about the relationship between you

and an ant. I don't think it would quite be the same as the relationship between terrestrial beings and ourselves because in this instance they would be dealing with intelligent life, you see, where the ant is unintelligent life. Well, this is a question on which we could debate for quite a while. I think ants show a very high degree of intelligence in many ways. They have a form of socialism which is almost perfect socialism. I mean, to those who advocate socialism as a desirable thing for humanity, we can take a look at the ants and find exactly the sort of thing we would have if we ever became perfect socialism. If they were intelligent though, those workers would get together for higher wages, you know. Well, they share equally in everything that's available anyway, so they just don't have much to do with it. But, again, this is getting to the point where I do believe that etymologists agree that there's a difference between animal life and human life.

Well, again, it's a relative thing. Now, I don't know whether our intelligence relative to theirs is as small as the ants' relative to ours it may be. I don't have any standard by which I can plumb the degree of intelligence they have and judge it. But, again, the only reason I'm making this point is to rush to our leaders. Uh-huh. Perhaps they don't see enough difference between our leaders and the average man to be worth going to the leader. Clyde? Ben, on that point. They didn't ask me aboard. I expressed some skepticism as to the abilities of the craft, perhaps not directly, but I certainly had it in mind. And I think this was just a gesture to satisfy any doubt. I don't think it had any particular importance. Did you come some distance away from it? I was only a few steps away from it. Well, in fact, I was in contact with the craft when the voice first came over. I had just touched the craft and the first sound was a warning against continuing to stroke

the metal of the craft. I see. May I ask you, sir, did you converse in English? Yes, I conversed in English. And they spoke to you in English? Yes. I was in the same position as the other scientists on the base. Idiomatic phrases, that is, slang terms, were used in the conversation. They were not always used the way we would use them. They were used out of context, according to our custom context. It sounded a little peculiar in that way, although I didn't notice any particular thing that we might call an accent. Of course, at Bright Sands Proving Grounds, we have many German people working there. We had some Japanese people working there. In fact, it was very interesting to see how the German people worked in the military in the war in the war in the war in the war in the war in the war and what he said in his that he is gonna recognize that Bay than the honest world is going to it has was it grand the has copies of it well let me just suggest then that anyone wanting information about it simply uh write to me then right here yes right here i'll see if you get the information

the craft itself was about 30 feet in diameter about 16 feet in height it was what i always

described as an oblate spheroid that is a sphere flattened at the top and bottom about 16 feet in height about 30 feet in diameter i actually saw only a very small portion of the interior one small segment which had been arranged for possible use as a passenger compartment it was explained to me that this craft was not actually designed or intended to carry passengers at all it was strictly a sampling device being used at the moment for taking samples of earth's atmosphere at ground level from various isolated points on the surface the craft was evacuated at the control ship and it was then set down on the surface at various isolated points a valve mechanism in the top was opened by the remote control device and it would thereupon fill itself with air at the pressure and temperature that existed at that point on the surface when it was returned to the control ship a much larger ship which was stated to be at that time

some 900 miles above the surface they had they would have a very large and quite a precise sample of the atmosphere as it existed on the surface at that point there was a small segment about seven by nine feet in the lower portion of this craft which had been arranged for possible emergency use as a passenger compartment and it was into this compartment that i was allowed to step and from which i made this short test top that's the only portion i saw and it contained almost nothing of interest there were four seating arrangements we would probably call them chairs although they didn't particularly resemble anything that i had seen in the way of chairs before they had no flat surface they were all in the same place they were all in the same place they had no surfaces at all they were continuously curved but when you deposited your body in them you wound up in an upright position and they were quite comfortable i don't know whether this

indicates that the individuals for whom these chairs were designed were similar to us especially i do think that they were but not for that reason i think that a seal could have been put into one of these chairs and would have been quite comfortable and also would have wound up in an upright position they were rather ingeniously curved so that almost any large animal that i know of could have fit into the chair aside from these four chairs and a lighting arrangement in the back there was nothing in this compartment at all well now there's uh there's a brief uh description for you and i know we've got a lot of people who want to ask questions so let's try to get some more of these beeper calls through who's this speaking please yeah bill clinton i'd like to ask now let's uh

let's let uh mr fry give an answer here to some of these things okay well i have just this uh on a number of occasions uh at lengths of three or four hours it requires about that

length of time actually to really get into any one of these questions there are good and sufficient answers to almost all of these questions which will be accepted by almost anyone who hears them at length except that there's just never enough time to are you doing one of your lectures uh soon again dan uh we'd be happy to give it a plug for you if you are is there one in the near future uh the only one i have scheduled at the moment is uh a service club like church rotary club in alhambra uh that's on the 24th i don't know whether that will be open to the public probably not probably only the rotary we have been offered uh a 13 weeks program in by a tv station in douglas arizona that is understanding group

the understanding group has been offered free time 15 minutes per 13 weeks well now i got you off the track get back to answering uh bill quinton here i'm sorry you uh you see actually the point is that it just take too long to go through all of them well no i'll be glad to i'll be glad to uh to go into this at any length that we care to go but if we really get into it we are we aren't going to get any other questions perhaps we better perhaps we better pass on other things at least uh temporarily and if we've got some other calls bill have you any other questions that you like i just asked you one and i asked you the second one how come you didn't ask him for some moving pictures that are the planet oh yeah well if you are if you are in uh a situation like this many people have asked me

why i didn't pry something off of the wall uh to use to use the souvenir uh there are certain things which a person under that some of those circumstances just doesn't do when you are in a position where you are completely at the mercy of uh of being which you have never seen before never even knew existed before uh you are in a situation where you are rather reticent about what you say rather careful about things you ask for in fact you don't ask for much of anything when you realize that you're even your life hinges upon the whim of uh of being which you never you never met before you're in a in a condition in which you don't do uh many of the things which might seem logical to someone who's never been in that position i can explain this better by uh asking an individual what he would save from his house if he suddenly woke in the middle of the night and found the whole house was in flame and asked him what and he knew he only had

time to save one or two things what would he save and he will say well first i'd go get my bond box because that has most of my securities and i'd go back for my wife's jewelry if i had more time he'll give you a fairly coherent list of the things that he would do if he actually does awaken in the middle of the night and find his house in flames you'll probably find him running out on the front lawn you'll probably find him running out on the front lawn you'll probably find him running out on the front lawn with a picture of old aunt minnie which is hung over the fireplace in which he's said for years he's going to take back to the garage because he can't stand the sight of it under situations like this we just don't react and always react in a logical logical manner i'm no better than anyone else and there's probably many things i could have done and

[36:56] Closing discussion

many things i should have done and things that i have been taking myself ever since that i didn't do but the fact remains that i didn't do it well any other question well yes the question is i'd

as he says that he just didn't think to ask that i don't know the matter of fact i doubt whether the i have motion pictures of the type that would that are cameras are project open anyway on the well

bill i i think he's probably heard that before as have uh... mostly resolution that's the point the point is that uh... if these questions are easy to answer if they had simple

answers they wouldn't be asked in the first place because everyone would already understand the answer i've built it dan it does seem mad does seem strange and i just did not do anything wrong that's all about whether it's right for you or not i'm not trying to show them that way either way i'm trying to answer their questions with my own empathy and i need them to do to my own advantage and not to be able to give them an even better way for me to talk to them Now, not just in your experience alone, but in all experiences. As you know, I've interviewed a great many so-called contactees of flying saucers. And it does seem strange that none of them has ever come back with anything that could, in the remotest sense, be considered evidence that would hold up by any standards that we accept.

Well, here we come back again to the question of evidence. And this is also something that always comes up. And I ask repeatedly, and this is something that nobody has ever answered me. What is evidence? What is it that these people want? How would they judge it if they saw it? What is evidence? It's easy to say, bring some evidence. There are people who have said they did have evidence. All right. I can answer that question. But we're going to pause just a moment for a word from one of our sponsors. And then we'll be back. Don't you go away. And don't forget to call us if you have a question. Mr. Dan Pryor. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. By the way, any questions or any comments that you ever have? About anything you see on this program, whether it's involving one of our guests, one of our sponsors, one of our phone calls, or anything.

Don't hesitate to write to us. Ben Hunter, KTTV, Hollywood 28. And I'll see that your request, whatever it is, is taken care of. Now, a moment ago, Dan, you said that nobody had been able to define evidence, what evidence of an outer space flight might be.

Well, now, if I were seeking evidence for an outer space flight. Let's. Let's eliminate your particular experience for a moment, because it was a little unique. But take some of these people that claim to have repeatedly contacted outer space beings and so forth. I would think that one very definite piece of evidence would be an outer space being. That because according to the various reports that I've read about them, they seem to have certain powers that we don't have. Powers of telepathy, powers of walking through walls. And I've heard all kinds of things that they're supposed to be able to do. So, therefore, one that could do that would be a good starter. I would suggest that they that one gain. Well, now, for instance, if you and I sitting here talking on the television, this thing were to come up and you'd say, well, Sam, speak to Ben Hunter, will you?

And then a voice comes down. You know, this would be evidence. It would seem to me that on the other planets, and particularly if they were technologically advanced so far ahead of us, you could come up with some kind of an instrument.

That they had perfected, whether it be an instrument for hunting or an instrument for flying their machines that we had never seen on this on this earth. But so far as I know, no one has ever come up with any of anything of that nature at all. Well, so far as I know, no one has come up with anything which has been accepted as being of that nature. As far as a device which isn't similar to anything that we have on Earth today, our little company, Cressel's, make control instruments for.

Guided missiles, and we come up about once a month with an instrument that no one would believe unless they saw it. And about twice a year, we come up with an instrument that people wouldn't believe if they did see it. I could bring any one of these in here and say this was an extraterrestrial instrument. No one except the other individual myself who had created the thing could disprove it. It might be evidence. It wouldn't be proof. Many of these things that we think are proof aren't so far as calling up to some. Being here and saying, well, manifest yourself. This is this is the old saying that goes clear back to biblical time. Show me a miracle and I will believe. But history shows us, history proves to us that even after the miracle is presented, the people still don't believe because they don't want to in the first place.

They will find a means around it. They will find some way of escape. There isn't anything that can't be duplicated. There isn't anything that can't be counterfeited. To some extent or another, so that none of these things are going to be absolute proof. But it also assumes something which almost everyone assumes, and that is that these beings are anxious for us to know that they exist.

I don't know whether they are or not. I rather doubt it. I can't think of any advantage that they could get. They might be willing to give us a little information, a little assistance. As a matter of fact, I believe they have on a number of occasions. But it has to be. It has to be accepted. I mean, information is no good unless it's acted on. And it's very difficult to get technical information or knowledge or assistance from an individual whose existence you deny.

Dan, our time's running out, and I want to get this other call on here. Let's see who this is. Who's speaking, please? Oh, this is Mrs. Norton. Mrs. Norton? Yes. Yes. All righty. First of all, M31 is a galaxy. It is the galaxy approximately at the distance at which Dr. Perry Moon... M-I-T says that the gravitational field of the sun, of our sun, becomes zero. That beyond that, the gravitation becomes negative. I happen to have in my box here the cosmological constant written by Dr. Perry Moon and Dominic Eberle-Spencer, which has this curve of gravitation which is identical with the description which I gave in my previous book, Steps to the Stars. Except that the book, Steps to the Stars, was published about five years before Dr. Perry Moon's. And he wrote me a letter congratulating me. And he wrote me a letter congratulating me on it, which I also have with me here. In fact, I talked to him. I went back, flew back to New York last year, late last year, and talked to him about it.

Mrs. Norton, where did you hear of M31? Well, I heard a lady who called about my husband writing a science fiction novel. I believe it was last year.

Oh, I see. It's an island universe, a galaxy. Well, fine. Well, thank you for your question, Mrs. Norton. Mr. Van? Yes. Now, I've got time for another question. Real quick one, yes. Could you tell me, please, Mr. Frye, do you have any idea... A quick answer, please, Dan. I'm sorry. Yes, I have an idea. As a matter of fact, if you were to get the book, Adam's Galaxy, and understanding, you'll find quite a lot about it in there, although it doesn't directly refer to it as powering spaceships. But it is a direct conversion of mass to energy without residue. We are just beginning to learn how to do that now. I think within another five or ten years, most of the means of obtaining energy by nuclear fission and fusion... ...that we're using now will be obsolete. It's possible through reversing the polarity of part of the matter to cause matter to completely

unite, to convert completely into energy without leaving any residue. There's a quick answer for you, Mrs. Norton, and the rest in his book, I guess. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye. I'm sorry we had to rush that one because we could devote a whole program to that. But I'm afraid our time is just about up. It's time for us to get to our contest. Dan, I want to thank you again for allowing us and the audience to cross-examine you. It's always interesting. We always enjoy it, whether we believe it or not. And lots of luck to you, and thanks so much for being with us. Well, if at least a few people think that we're thinking before, we'll have done some good anyway. Stick around if you like. We're going to do a contest, which I think you'll get quite a kick out of. Again, if there are any questions that you have at all, if you'd like information about our trips, remember we've got one going to the Orient April the 21st.

We've got one, a little one, going to Las Vegas, February 17, 18, 19. If you'd like information about those trips or about one of our guests that we've had on the program tonight or any time this week, or to participate in our contest, don't forget to write to us. Ben Hunter, KTTV, Hollywood 28. And now it's contest time. And during the program, we reached in the hopper and drew out one of the cards.